Thursday, May 3, 2012
should women be in infantry units
I was asked to write an agrumentative paper for my English class. The topic I chose was why women should not be allowed in infantry units. Little did i know that my topic would become a current issue. I created this blog for a few reasons 1.) I have to as part of my English final 2.) I wanted to see peoples reactions to the recent change in policy to allow women to train for an infantry position. I can not stress this enough, this is an open floor, tell me why you are for it or why not!
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Not personally in the military but a lot of my close friends are:
ReplyDeleteI think the percentage of women who would be physically able to complete training and the necessary tasks required of a grunt is very, very small. (This is not being sexist, women have a very different physical build than men, which leads to a much weaker upper body) I'd say that the percentage is so small, that the risks of rape, sexual harassment, etc, and the changes to military structure and conduct, and probable complications that may occur in the field far outweigh any possible benefit of including women in infantry units.
Also, women cant do a pushup, or take a joke.
This is probably the most spot on answer I've ever heard....
DeleteIt's a man's world. The camaraderie, bonding, and coping mechanisms that relate to combat arms MOS's are usually not gender friendly. Add women into the mix, and you're removing many of those, breaking traditional methods of building morale and trust.
ReplyDeleteNo, i was an 0351 and i do not see how it would help anything.
ReplyDeleteI was asked by the teacher, what if the woman was a professional athlete and could keep up with the fast pace and physical strain we endure every day.
ReplyDeleteWell let's be honest: On an anatomical level, women also have to be clean and hygienic and even still, many have issues that need tending to every so often. When I was in combat my squad only had 9 marines, 1 casualty and we'd be combat ineffective. No doc would be able to provide her with the sanitary environment to tend to those issues, and to pull her back to the rear would screw over the rest of squad. We all know in combat hygiene takes a back seat to mission accomplishment and thus we usually go months and months without even a shower.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I completely agree with Colin. There is a very small percent of women in the military who would be able to carry out the jobs that the infantry requires. Females fall out of 5 mile hikes, with a daypack and flak and their rifle. What can they possibly bring to an infantry unit when you give them a full molle pack, and a 240 to carry?
ReplyDeleteThey do have FET teams, and I see that as a positive, but that's the closest women should get to the Infantry. If they really want to be infantry, pick an infantry-friendly MOS, such as Comm, or MP. That's the closest they should be allowed to combat.
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ReplyDeleteTo assume physical strain is the only stressor is ignorant on your teacher's part. Sure there's women out there that can perform to the physical standards that are asked of a grunt, but the mental and emotional resilience to combat is just as important, if not more so. How you act under stressful and life-threatening circumstances is more important than how far or fast you can run. Ability to cope with taking life, seeing life taken, and losing men (or women) under your command is enormously important. It's a heavy emotional strain that I could see many women struggling with, as they were naturally built to be emotional beings.
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ReplyDeleteI am just impressed that John Michael Sandlin knew how to set up a blog. Congrats Gunslinger. Oh and no women on the front line.
ReplyDeleteHaha it only took 6 tries.
DeleteI haven't read any comments but here is mine. First there is a reason that women are not allowed in the grunt units even if they are in top of the line shape or even butch like a man. If I had a female in squad the first thing I would do is give her the S.A.W. you want to be even fine here you go we are going on a foot control. Next during constant training missions you want to talk back to me because you have stomach cramps because you are on your period I will destroy and make you cry. No mercy. Go run and cry to the platoon sgt or commander and I still will say if you cant hack it and want to cry in training then get the fuck out of my squad. In combat you react how you train. My job is train Marines and teach Marines to destroy with a violence of action. I don't have time to motivate you because you are emotionally unstable and decide to cry while you are under fire. My next point is that we need to learn from history. Jessica Fuckin Lynch is a prime example. She was a motor t chic and did not properly care for her weapon and froze in combat. She is not the only one either. I believe there was 2 other chics. Women do not need to be combat for another reason. SEX. You can not tell me that If a female and male marine are on post by themselves that the simple thought of sex while they are suppose to on each will not even cross their minds you are crazy. Oh then she gets pregnant sent to the rear and then leaves the plt short handed. Women want equal right we gave them a chance to join Gods corps. We did they give us boots and work in the wing as well as admin. with that being said how often is your pay jacked up. If they can't even do paper work they can do tactical missions without endangering other marines. Doubtful. Full combat load with weapons after a long mission tired as shit and hungry and she can focus on shooting straight with fields of fire. Get real. Stay in garrison.
ReplyDeleteIf a woman is in a good enough shape to keep up with the physical aspects that a man does then she will not have a period, it's called amenorrhea. So I say if she is put though all the same shit a man is put through and passes (without crying) then let her be all she can be!
DeleteOh and most women who want to do that are butch and aren't thinking of fucking the asshole next to her in the field she is thinking of fucking his girlfriend!
DeleteI think it's trickier than we are letting on...
ReplyDelete1) physicality: look, when properly trained, some women absolutely CAN hack it. I've seen it. It real.
Let's all pretend that the current physical readiness of the Marine Corps hasnt often gone to shit, for either gender. Sandlin & others I served served with saw this in male active duty marines who showed up to replace us Who showed up fat & unable to hump.
2) Emotional/psychological: yeah, I think that our society often coddles folks. We, as Americans are often just... Soft. Entitled. Unfocused. I think that women are encouraged to be even weaker or softer than the candy-ass men in America. BUT.. I live in east L.A. Where some of these cholas will pull a driveby or shank you in the dick just to watch your expression change. My point? Not all women are weak bitches and just cuz a dude has a dick, don't make him a man.
3) distraction/comraderie:
This is(for me) where the rubber meets the road. Its one thing for a white racist trooper to get over his mental preconceived racism and train with a dark green marine... But we are still men, and the only thing I did more in-country than work? Was beat my dick like it stole something. There's just no way I could not try to run game and fuck my fellow female trooper. In fact, on ship? That's exactly what I did. Run game and fuck female sailors. That causes animosity and team breakdown. But hey, haters gonna hate.
I think the policy is written by politicos and they are influenced by the taxpayer money of ma & pa paycheck.
America isn't ready to think about their illustrious military happily gangbanging in the back of a 7 ton.
They aren't ready to see a female operator beheaded on al-jazeera.
America isn't ready to grow the fuck up and realize that some Jessica lynch barbie is no more A news story than a male prisoner... In fact lynch was In no real Danger...
It's bullshit.
I totally digress.
Look, you want women in infantry units?
Fine.
Bring the homos too.
If they pass the same standards? Let them in.
noticei did not say a gender-equivalent standard.
Let's all fight and fuck and have a lot more stress overall.
Let's get over ourselves.
But let's get past the idea that there's privacy.
That there's not going to A lot of boning.
And lemme say this: maybe the weakness is ours, as men? I mean, if I knew Sandlin was fucked up or captured? Yeah.. I'd come running... But the combat stress if it was a female that was dead or captured? I just think that would be even harder to deal with. We are sons with moms, brothers with sisters, fellas with girlfriends, and husbands with wives. And I know the stress of a woman hurt, stressed or dead ways heavier on my heart than that of a man in dire straits.
In some antiquated and pedestrian version of chivalry? I fight so that my women don't have to.
-Doc
No they should not. Do I think there are women out there who are capable of performing just as well if not better then some men in direct combat positions? Yes. However, I am not prepared to be in a firefight and watch a woman get killed right next to me, nor am I prepared to see one blown up when we're on a foot patrol. I hold women in high regard, for the people I love most are my mom, sister and daughter. I have gone to war so that they do not have to. So yes I think women are capable, but I still do not want them beside me in a usmc infantry unit. I wouldnt be able to live with myself if one were killed...it's hard enough when your male brothers in arms don't make it home alive.
ReplyDeleteI agree with "Doc".
ReplyDeleteSame standards, same treatment, same opportunity.
Now here is the tricky part….
The problem is how men are raised to protect women.
Viking women fought side-by-side as "shield-mates" to their husbands.
The pioneer women who helped settle this country were just as hard and tough as their men.
Have any of you thought about who worked and kept this country going during WWII?
True, women deal with emotions differently, but they deal. Can we say the same about men?
I'm asking for honesty here...
How many of you watched a man freeze or cry in combat?
How many of you know of men who couldn't cope with combat?
How many of YOU have signs of PTSD or have seen it in others? Most women would seek help, whereas most men would not.
How many of you know of a man who "ended it" because of the horrors of combat? Can you say you know of a woman who did?
Sex? Periods? Wet dreams? (You big, strong men left that last one out)
All irrelevant.
Rape? Happens to men too. But there’s too much shame in admitting it. Even for many women.
Last week my husband said to me… “I’d like to butt-f**K his wife while he watched.”, about someone who really annoyed him. I responded “Just do him and LET her watch.” Got a huge laugh, but his statement exemplifies how most men would think and react.
The problem isn’t women in combat.
The problem is the men who would have to fight beside them, watch them be wounded, mamed, or killed, and their lack of respect for the women who have the ability and "guts" to do so.
There is an easy answer to this, NO!!!
ReplyDeleteNow I love all women and we need them to function as a society, but I too do this for the women I love and it would be hard to see them hurt or killed! There are plenty of women that are tough enough and able to be in the infantry. But for the men having a female right there with them, late at night on post,there mind would be on something else!Not on keeping watch! We have had the Marine Infantry for a long time without any women and we have always exceled at our mission, We should not change what we have. We love you, WE REALLY DO! but please let us Grunts do things how we do! Semper FI
I posted this blog for english class but i am putting my response in now. Yea FET teams can get into places that men cannot but who is providing their security when they do it. I have had 5 combat tours and have yet to see any good come from women being in the field. The last time i was over was my first experience with a FET team. After 2 hours of being on the mission they wanted to sit down and eat lunch in a town behind a wall, therefor a started to chew some ass. I asked my boy behind me wheres your lunch, he said i ate it on the walk out here.I told them to get the f*** up theres no time for chow and we punched on. Once we returned back into the wire the captain of the FET was complaining about the language used from the PL to LT. The Lt said welcome to the grunt side of shit. Granted nothing happened in the town since we had been there but the previous unit before us lost 7 guys in this area. The two people talking about if women can do this physically without crying should not speak because you have never been in situation that has had you so stressed, sleep deprived, watched your buddies get blown up or shot and half to make a call on how to continue the mission. A infantry marine cannot just stop and help their buddy out because the have been hit. Its called mission accomplishment and as bad as it sounds thats the way we roll. We don not turn our back on them we try to fix them so they can get back in the fight and after the engagement we send them to get help.
DeleteWhile I don't think the majority of women could do the job of the basic infantryman, there are some women of history that are some interesting outliers, for example Russian Sniper, Lyudmila Pavlichenko comes to mind.
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ReplyDeleteLike Colin said the percentage of women who could actually meet the physical demands is so small why even allow it. You can not have only 1 female in the unit there has to be some sort of balance BUT you also can't change the standards women have to be held to the same demands that men do to lower the standards for men so women would be equal would be devistating to the USMC..I can not think of many women who would even want to be put into those types of situations where they could possibly kill or be killed. Women are the more compassionate sex we create life, nurture life we don't take it. We also think WAY to much sometimes you are put in combat situations where you can't think or talk it out! Right from the get go when we are born we are treated different boys are told to be tough girls its okay to cry we are babied more thats just the way it is. Even if i could meet the physical demands I couldn't take being yelled at all the time. I don't see any positives in allowing women in infantry roles esp. when there are so many other things that women can do in the military where there is a need for them.
ReplyDeleteI like how people say that women should be allowed to "try" in the infantry. If they want their shot then here is my solution:
ReplyDelete1. Same standards across the board. That means pft, cft, soi, height/ weight, grooming (male regulation haircuts, and shaving their fucking faces. No more god damn peach fuzz mustaches. I don't allow it in my squad.)
2. Their own units. I'm not referring to their own fireteams, or their own platoons. No, I'm referring to female battalions from the Colonel down to the private. If you want to "try" then you can get your sisters killed, not my brothers.
I know that other countries used women as snipers such as the Vietnamese and they had progress using women as snipers due to there abilities to keep a low heart rate and patience for the kill while shooting.. but in the end what happened to them. Did they have the manpower to incorporate men when doing so
ReplyDeleteStraight up the answer is NO!
ReplyDeleteWomen should not be in the infantry. This is not being sexist, this is not saying that they can't do it and it's not that I just don't want them in the infantry. Women are supposed to bring life into this world not take it. Women are, and always have been, the life bearers. Why should we ask someone who can do something so special and beautiful to do something that is so horrible. War, death and destruction should not be a place for a woman. We are supposed to protect our women from death and destruction. I know that is why I fight; because I don't want my wife to have to experience the horrible nature of war. I would fight a hundred wars to keep my wife and daughter away from war. Again, I'm not saying they are incapable, they are capable; but we, as men, are supposed to protect our women and children. That's why we put women and children first in the lifeboats of a sinking ship. Women are the ones that carry on life.
As for meeting the physical standards in the infantry, there are women out there that could do it, no problem. We dropped a couple of MEN from my SOI class just because they couldn't complete the training. There are women out there that are way stronger than me. There are women that are smarter than me. But this isn't the point. There is no pressing need for women in the infantry. There is a steady supply of motivated young men that want to be Marine infantryman. Marines infantryman have been fighting and winning wars for over 230 years without women in their ranks.
Summary, we protect our women, not throw them to the deepest, darkest, most inhuman place to fight. They are strong enough, smart enough, motivated enough, however they flat out should not be asked to kill somebody!
Brother let me lay it down for you,
ReplyDeleteI went to The Citadel and I even dated a female cadet down there which is the most hated of crimes. I have no problem with women in the military but I do have a problem with forced de-segregation on behalf of "equality". Women in the infantry will create nothing but problems. I did 10 years as a grunt and 1st and foremost it is a boys club. We have our own language and a simple passing sentence is grounds for a sexuall harrasment complaint its hard enough that gays can openly serve because we are used to calling each other deragotory terms usually in reference to someone being a "queer" or "pussy". Those are extremely common occurences so one can see where this basic act can bring promising careers to a quick end. Secondly and most inmportant. if you take a woman to the field or in garrison they are going to copulate with males. Im willing to bet youll see a drastic increase in rapes even if alcohol is consumed or if 2 people made a bad decision. Also if theres a lengthy relationship the break up will be tough and on deployment you have enough problems thats the last thing youll want to deal with. Then of course theres going to be the jealousy issue with ex's. I dont think I need to elaborate on that. Create all women battalions if you must but DO NOT integrate. My final argument is check the IDF statistics from the Yom Kippur War, They tried, It didnt work out for the women.
Hope all is well with you Brother
S/F
-Ward